I have been trying to find people on the other side to debate. I like to debate. I like to prove my point...
Don't get me wrong conservatives, please post here and post often...I love hearing your great articulation of the issues...and I do go to many conservate sites...
but the fact that I can only fine ONE liberal blog that has ANY debate is sad. They are all full of hate and emotional name calling.
If anyone has anywhere I can go to see a liberal who doesn't need medication let me know.
For that matter, any good conservative sites I don't have a link too.
Saturday, March 04, 2006
Are there any moderate/liberal blogs where you can actually debate?
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My latest post at readmejhb.blogspot.com describes Thomas Sowell's explanation of this. Modern utopians resort to namecalling because they see opposition to their vision not due to a different reading of complex and inclusive evidence, but because opponents are lacking intellectually, morally, or both. This can be explained by fundamental assumptions about the nature of man, the nature of the world, and the nature of justice.
thanks optimus prime
or....most people are jags to begin with, and you give an ounce of moral high road to one of them, and they cant stand to allow any opposing viewpoint. Those people pop their heads in here sometimes, too.
I like to argue, too.
Oddly enough, I've been most successful spurring interesting discussion when I disagree with something conservatives believe in.
Most people consider me a conservative, but I reject the whole right/left thing.
I just seem like a conservative because I so strongly dispise what the liberals have become.
right...when you oppose a conservative..you can have debate with them because they are much more likely to debate.
Yes, there are some conservatives who go crazy like the liberals...but its about 1,000,000 to one
I( wouldnt call what most conservatives do as debating. Some are educated, and well thoguht out in their theories. However, most of what I see are textbook Conservatives who are so fizated on viewing something one way, that they will go down fighting to preserve the slightest notion they hold dear cuz thinking in any way outside that will make their head explode from all the cognitive dissonance.
even if you were right, they would atleast debate...the crap on liberal blogs is hysterical yelling, hate and name calling...along with the fact that you can go to 1,000 liberal blogs and hear the EXACT same lines...I find that to not be true on conservative blogs...even if they agree on an issue, you tend to not hear the same exact chants and phrases..
It's kind of funny, but I read this debate pretty regularly on liberal blogs about those crazy, name-calling conservatives . . .
Yeah, I said thats NOT debating.
Your post is oddly ironic to me. I'd debate things here but I've often felt that there's not an open mind or audience, that my liberal views are immediately shot down simply for being liberal.
Liberal views aren't shot down for being liberal, usually there's a demonstrable reason for a given view being wrong (if it's being "attacked"). Exchange of information is what we do best with open minds. I'll admit though that even when there is an underlying reason, it isn't always stated because it is either general knowledge among conservatives, thought to be self-evident by the author (usually a dumb assumption), etc.
Problems in rethorical debate usually come from one or both sides refusing to ask for (or listen to) well-reasoned explanations of the "why" behind a given viewpoint.
This is something I try to do every time I post to the degree I feel it is necessary. Sometimes I undershoot the mark. In such cases, "What do you mean by...?" , "How did you come to [X] conclusion?", or "If I understand you correctly, you are saying [paraphrase], but I think a better conclusion is [Y]" are much more useful questions and responses than, "you're completely wrong, and I'm so full of myself I'm not even going to tell you why I think so"
Does that make sense?
That whole civilized/idea based debate is what is missing from 99% of liberal blogs and "thinkers". No, it's all personal insults and straw man attacks.
I should add to that, some "liberal" views are rejected not because they are inherently right/wrong, but from a pragmatic stance...they may be goodhearted and noble, but they don't work, or are counterproductive.
An example is welfare. No matter how good it feels to "help" those who can't help themselves, government based welfare systems invariably create professional couch potatoes. True, they may help some people, but by and large, they are continually and increasingly rewarding laziness... with such factors as time limits, mandatory job placement, available job training, etc missing, it simply teaches people that they don't have to be productive members of society, that the taxpayers will feed and clothe them forever.
This is not to say that the concept of helping the poor is wrong, and is it being "mean" to the poor, or wishing them ill. It is an analysis that says a certain system doesn't DO any good, and often makes worse the problems it was created to solve. Nor is anyone who matters seriously suggesting that NOTHING should be done for the poor. The conservative viewpoint is that all this can be accomplished much more efficiently and effectively to greater ultimate good in the private sector via local and national secular and religious charities, job-placement and training opportunities, shelters, soup kitchens, you name it... But it should be (and will be) taken care of by people who know what the heck they're doing... and not Government agencies.
Does this make sense? Do you understand the difference between the above opinion and "republicans hate the poor because they oppose welfare"?
Re: your first comment after mine Mike - that's exactly what I mean. Saying that 99% of the liberal blogs are all personal attacks...that's an opinion, and I think we'd agree you are well within your right to have it. But it's an unfounded opinion and illustrates why I don't 'debate' here.
Re: your second comment: Yes, I understand the difference. I might even agree. But again, I don't feel free to debate that here.
well, you know that 34.56837% of statistics are made up on the spot, right? j/k
You do have a good point there, and I thank you for citing an example. See? You're already rising above the average liberal poster. Upon reading your comment, I feel like I made an honest mistake or there's something I could have done better, or with more thought. You didn't start attacking me personally or outright dismissing my ideas. You stated your point of disagreement and why you thought the way you do. You have to understand this is RARE among liberal comments. So thank you again =)
I suppose I should have said, "99%" of liberal blogs I've seen. But even that might be a low estimate considering I have yet to find any at all with more civilized than uncivilized comments. I don't tend to read certain conservative blogs for the same reason...lots of dumb photo-shopping to make fun of whoever, lots of gloating ignorant blather... This isn't to say I've never done any of that, I'm human like the next guy... just that when you get to the root of things, especially in the political class, there aren't many nice liberals.
I would venture that perhaps the reason there don't seem to be many nice liberals in political debate is that the truly peaceful ones simply don't show up...they have other things to do with their lives than argue with strangers? Someone who is at peace with their own beliefs never feels like they have to prove anything. Confidence in one's own message leads to peace of mind, and the truly peaceful never start fights or spout derrogatory nonsense.
Well, you're welcome...but I do disagree that this is rare among liberal commenters. Isn't that like saying liberals are all knee-jerk idiots? We both know that both parties have smart people and then not-so-smart people. Why can't a comment be non-party (non-denominational? independent? whatever the right term is)?
Okay. I get why it can't be. But I guess I'm trying (and badly) to ask why there can't be more respect here and everywhere on both sides.
There's two schools of thought there, one says that respect is earned, never demanded. People seeking respect should first show some before asking for it.
Yes, it would be nice if everyone was respectful, but that would put Jerry Springer out of business, and we can't go around destroying people's careers, right? In all seriousness, respect has to start somewhere...it starts with every individual. Some choose to be jerks, some choose otherwise.
It's also a self-building or self-destroying thing, when one person escallates an argument, it becomes easier for others to join in. On the other hand, when a person is always respectful to those around him, inevitably they will show more respect to him after time.
So whenever someone complains about a group, I always ask, "what have you done to earn this group's respect, or tick them off?"
Nothing's more irritating when someone comes into a forum (not even necessarily political) and starts a pointless flame war, then gets all indignant and pissed off when he's told he's no longer welcome to post there.
anon needs to get a name, and then explain how this blog does not allow debate...
No, it is not the happy land that liberals go to and spew hate and love eachother for it. You will be challenged when you say something that we do not agree with....that is what debate is.
I'm commenting as anon b/c I don't want to link to my own blog for various reasons, and I'm too lazy to come up with another original name. :)
Mike: I completely agree. Respect isn't something that is (or should be) automatically given, and I certainly don't want to be responsible for Jerry's demise. :)
Game, I have no problems being challenged. I didn't say this blog doesn't allow debate; I said I don't feel it's (really meaning the exchange in the comments, since it's your blog, post whatever the hell you want) open to looking at things from a different point of view than that which is already determined.
But your very last line in your last comment is precisely why I don't feel comfortable fully debating here - not ALL liberals go to/have/want a "happy land...to spew hate" and not all conservatives DON'T want that.
The irony, Anon, is that from what I've seen, you're not the kind of person who WOULD "spill hate."
Too bad we can't all "reset" and start over with fresh, neutral opinions of the world... There are days that'd be really nice... And while we're at it, let's breed bright green pigs. Oh, wait, they've already done that. DOH!
Mike, thanks - I appreciate that. Without being too egotistical, I'd agree with you about myself. :)
But perhaps that's why I find such offense in some of the statements I've seen here. Don't some of the comments do to the liberals of the world what the conservatives who visit here speak out against?
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