In Milwaukee, if you are poor enough you can take the money the state would have given Milwaukee Public Schools and use it to go to a private or religious school.
What do you guys think of this:
1. It gives kids a chance to go to better schools...
2. many of the kids go to schools that might actually be worse than MPS schools, no one knows because there are no tests for these schools.
3. Public schools lose money
4. only certain people can go...
what do you think?
Friday, March 03, 2006
School choice passes in Milwaukee
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13 comments:
I think it's a great idea in the long term. I'm not going to try and argue that there won't be problems in the beginning, I've read the same stories being cited about sham schools that pop up.
But I think as people get used to the system and start making intelligent and informed decisions, the net effect will be hugely positive. A fundamental principle of economics is when entities are forced to compete with one another for goods and services, and comparative information is widely available, with few exceptions those with the best quality product win, followed closely by the best value.
I see no reason why this cannot apply to education. It's already been proven true... generally, the people with the most money can already buy the best education...
The only inherent weakness of allowing everyone their education money to take anywhere is that wealth and good decision making usually come as a package. So do poverty and poor decision making. So logically you're going to see a whole bunch of people who aren't any good at making financial and life decisions, suddenly able to make decisions about their children's education.
A lot of them will make a lot of bad decisions and get ripped off. This effect is sad, but not much worse than the way things already are. Additionally, the potential benefit for the vast majority (those who would probably make good educational decisions, but lack the resources) is overwhelmingly positive with quite literally boundless opportunity.
There is no reason to enslave the masses to the lowest common denominator *cough* nochildleftbehind *cough*
Woah, hold the phone... Did I miss the significance of "If you are poor enough" the first time? Is this some kind of affirmative action program for those below a certain threshold? If so, the whole thing should be struck down and re-written. From a strictly pragmatic viewpoint, applying choice exclusively to the group who demonstrate the lowest collective capacity to make intelligent decisions will serve only to magnify the negative effects of that freedom.
Second, it would be a further erosion of equal protection. To grant or deny government services (tax money for their education) to people for no other reason than their wealth status is not only unconstitutional, it's a disturbing attack on one of the most basic tennants of American values, cloaked within an appearance of more freedom.
Two main problems I have with it:
1. Many of the schoohs are sham schools that are stealing money from the state and teaching nothing...
2. What about all the lower-middle and middle class families that would like to send there kids to private schools....they are not poor enough to get the money but too poor to go...
also, it is the KIDS who make MPS suck...not the teachers or the building...so what do you think will happen when MPS kids go to other schools...they make those schools suck too... I have heard many stories of formerly good schools turning into crap because too many MPS kids got in..
Hopefully, the better of these private schools will vigorously screen these new applicants. Otherwise, what will happen is the parents of the kids already established there will just pull their children out, and start a new school. History has proven this true, in similar scenarios.
It's not right that this opportunity be given only to poor kids. If they are going to do this, they need to make the opportunity available to all children in public schools, not just poor kids. That is wrong. Sounds liberal to me, ie: rewarding people for being poor. God helps those who help themselves.
Outside of exceptional and special education, I have been against school choice since first inception. The whole bussing system, apparently, is going to change soon, too. It will be back to community based schooling, if it happens. Mike m is completely wrong, too. In high schools, money doesnt buy you a better education, it buys you a school where people are just like you, rich and probably white. Also, wealth does not afford you good decision making skills. It provides you with several more alternatives if life, and a bigger cushion for when you do fuck up. Just the opposite for poor people, fewer choices and no life preserver when you make the wrong one. I agree NCLB is crap, though. The rest of his 'assertions' are bunk. Which brings me to your comment, and helps cement my argument. If money buys you a better school, how come MPS students are bringing it down? Cuz, its no better than the one they left.....
This situation is way to complicated to make huge generalizations...
Some choice schools are good...
But they have very few choice kids in them...or they have the actual few good kids in the city...
I am as sure of this as anything in the world...the kids make the school. A good administration is needed...but a good admin. and bad kids will not make a good school...while a bad admin and good kids will still work out okay...
Being in a richer family does allow you to be more of a fuck up and still be okay, but should we just wine and complain that all these rich white people have it so well of and black are so poor?
What does that solve?
The white kids in the 'burbs can read and write, and alteast know right and wrong...the inner city kids do not have any skills...no reading, writing, math, right and wrong, manners, NOTHING...so who's fault is that? Why do you think there are no jobs for them? They can't work!!! All the complaining and excuse making will not help
mil. all I can say is....dido...nice job...
Dude, you are preaching to the converted. Remember, I work in the CLC of an inner city school. I see the worst, every day, like you. However, when I talk to friends working in the Burbs, the only real difference is that the Burb kids seem to understand that consequences for their actions will have a greater reach than just where they sit for a day. The urban kids dont. The Burb kids are just as poorly behaved, but they draw a more definate line in front of behavior that is going to get them suspended or worse. They have no more respect or care for authority than the urban students. The final difference is the numbers. In the Burbs, the percentage is lower who really get out of hand. Oh, and for posterity, the Burb schools I asked teachers in were Brookfield Central and WA Hale.
Agree on some things...
Burb kids probably actually have less respect for authority...but I will strongly disagree with you when it comes to behavior, atleast in school. I did my student teaching in Waukesha...there is NO comparison. Bad in Waukesha is my best day in MPS, period.
Burb kids do moer hard drugs than city kids. Its that the burb kids do know what right and wrong is, inncer city kids don't even know what the right thing to do is in school. Burb kids do their homework, they know what they need to do to be successful. City kids either don't know or don't want to do what it takes to succeed.
Thats pretty much a paraphrase of what I said, with extra commentary.
Dont forget that the only area urban kids have a higher rate in than Burb kids is sexual promiscuity, and school crime. Outside the school, the Burb kids take over. Much higher juvenile crime rates in the Burbs(though, that stat was from the 90's and might have changed.). Time for breakies, gotta go.
I burb kids win on drug crime...but I"d like to see the other crime rates...crime rates in the inner city are way, way higher than the burbs...
Do you know how many kids I have had in MPS who have P.O. officers???
Not going to find that in the Burbs...and yes, I will agree some of that has to do with the fact the rich kids can get better lawyers.
I honestly don't think any kind of half-baked voucher program is going to work...it has to be all or nothing...ideally abolish the DOE, and let people spend their money directly on their children's education instead of on government bureaucracy. Think about how much teachers could get paid without all that wasted overhead!
Rhyno, does it make you feel better to claim I'm "completely wrong?" while saying nothing meaningful or even relevant to back that up? For my statement about anybody having the ability to buy a better education to be "completely wrong" you would have to demonstrate that it is false (ie, that the best possible education is to always be found in public school), not simply that there is an exception to it... By saying that some expensive schools are inferior or a waste of money, does not even address the question of being able to find superior education outside the public system. If that's the kind of dismissive, twisted logic you approach life with, I pity you.
Additionally, I never said money brings good decision making, I said they were linked. Generally, people who are responsible, work hard, and make good decisions will make more money than people who do not. There's exceptions both ways, but exceptions are by definition irrelevant when speaking in generalities. You should know this from high school English class.
It's the underlying sense of responsibility, hard work, and self-improvement that make people rich (not counting inherited wealth). Liberals don't understand this which is probably why Rhyno said "the rest of [my] assertions are bunk" without offering any counterpoint or reason. Unless of course he was talking about something else...
Game, that's an interesting point about bad kids screwing up a good school, and it's true. My field is not education but I have seen plenty of examples of great schools that over-reach their ability to handle troubled kids, and come crashing down.
That being said however, I don't think it would be a major factor in a truly open free-market educational system, for the simple reason that in such a system, I predict two things would happen: 1. lazy, uncaring parents wouldn't bother with the paperwork, and generally speaking, it's the kids of the lazy and uncaring who are the most trouble. 2. Schools (just like private businesses)at every level would have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason (within some sensible limits). In a truly free (referring to choice, not cash) and open system, there would be enough options, and ideally enough information that every student would find a home in a school that worked for them. In the absence of one, I'm sure some enterprising educator will create one...as is the beauty of capitalism and creative people.
What do you think?
My understanding is that some already do it as part of NCLB, however their are forces at work, WEAC, who are opposed to releasing the info in the name of privacy of the participants and the quality of the scores.
This is not true; WEAC and MTEA have been lobbying for results to be made public, which is not currently the requirement.
About 90% of voucher schools test, but many do not make the results public even to the parents, and instead use the scores only for internal purposes. Their testing is not as a result of NCLB, which is the federal law that covers only public schools receiving Title I money.
Hopefully, the better of these private schools will vigorously screen these new applicants.
The law forbids this.
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