Monday, April 23, 2007

Monday Free for all

You take control and talk about whatever you want

Posted by The Game at 12:24 PM

35 comments:

blamin said...

Ya,.

Do you think the "global warming, made worse by humankind" is a finished debate with no room for thoughtful, reasoned, questions?

Do you think "hate speech" is a debated and done argument, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a "hatemiester".

Do you think "Pocahantis be good, John Brown be bad" is the perfect representation of the history of this country?

Well, if you answer is yes, yes, yes; then by all means knock yourself the f*&^ right on out.

If your answer is maybe, doubtful, probably not; then welcome to the real world, we're glad to have ya!!@!

April 23, 2007 9:52 PM
Jim said...

Pop Quiz:

1. Name the person working in the White House that denied Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert agent of the CIA.

2. Name the only advocate of anthroprogenic global warming to claim that Americans would have to radically change their living standards (a la the unabomber) to slow down the increase in green house gases.

3. Why does the Bush administration need an "implementation manager" (aka "execution manager", aka "war czar") to manage the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts?

4. If Colonel Jessup gave specific orders that Pvt. Santiago wasn't to be touched, why would he be in grave danger?

5. Who is "curveball?"

April 23, 2007 11:00 PM
Ron said...

Since Game didn't want this discussion on the other thread I will move it here.

First blamin, I called Jason "thesis boy" because he so often seems to me to be trying to get an "A" instead of having a discussion.
Is quoting Marcus Arelious(sp) suppose to make it more believable than if Jason made his own statement? I don't care what Marcus thinks or thought. Aristotle said " Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved". Is that going to change your mind about it? Nope. If I agree with a precept I do, if I don't I don't care if George Washington said it. They are all human and are just as likely to be wrong occasionally as Jason is. Statistics can be interpreted in any number of ways and we all know that so in most cases it is a waste of time unless you are writing a thesis. I am not Neville Chamberlin and this is not Vietnam or WW2. While history can teach us much every situation and person is unique. Integrate what you learn into your version of common sense. Don't use it as a corollary to truth in another circumstance. Talk to me like a human. The rest just looks like baffling with bullshit to me.

Next, obviously I will never change anyones mind here and while I have little doubt I am more openminded than most of the people on this board, you will unlikely be changing my mind on much either. I know this. I come here sometimes and comment just because I think you guys need to hear things from a real person instead of continually only hearing what a conservative THINKS a liberal is. So you can see that I DON'T hate America. That I do want liberty and justice for all. Unfortunately you continue to twist me and my beliefs into something they are not and insist that I believe something I don't, which is why I quit coming here very often. You all, in the other thread set me straight on what you REALLY believe and why you believe it. Unfortunately you don't believe me or will not accept it when I do the same.
Third, obviously we are going to have differences and that is what makes the country great in my opinion. A person making 25 thousand a year is going to see a lot of things differently on many issues than someone who makes 100 thousand a year. A business owner has different problems than an employee has. A person that lives in a large city deals with a different set of problems than someone who lives in a rural area. And on and on..it's called embracing diversity. First one must be able to accept that fact and see the big picture. When one decides there is only one answer that fits all...well it just ain't gonna work.
Marshall, while I still disagree with much of what you said, I appreciate your viewpoint and thank you for the explanation free of hatred. It is so easy to spiral into that mode when someone is attempting to degrade you with their answer more than have a discussion. Like saying "thesis boy". Yes I am guilty too. I run through the same emotions as anyone else when attacked and misrepresented.
Finally I don't have hard feelings toward anyone on this blog..except pcd who seems to be missing. That guy is way over the line. He doesn't even debate,just smear. I, in all humble modesty, think he has classic symptoms of a rageaholic. Yes there is such a thing. They express their power through anger. Look it up sometime and I think you will see why I think he is the one person on this board that,in all seriousness, needs therapy.

April 24, 2007 8:35 PM
Ron said...

Oh, by the way, Jim..bless you my friend.

April 24, 2007 8:48 PM
The Game said...

I like to think I am open minded... you liberals do not think I am..
It is possible that I read your stuff...and usually just think it is wrong...I don't automatically think it is wrong...and if you think for a minute, you will have to remember that there are some times I agree with you.
Like I said before...no one can fit the stereotypical liberal all the time...and really...I am more pissed at the people in charge who act like liberals who I believe are ruining the country and the world....

April 24, 2007 9:40 PM
blamin said...

So ASSUMTION *1 is" instead of continually only hearing what a conservative THINKS a liberal is....." Ohhh, that's right, we only listen to the conservative point of view? Nooo, we couldn't possibly have considered other points of view, and found them lacking. So very, very, lacking.

"...and while I have little doubt I am more openminded than most of the people..." Why of course you are! Your mind is just so open that anything can spill in at any time.

And finally you attempt to invoke Aristotle in your definintion of the modern liberal, knowing full well that the modern Lib has about much in commen with Aristotle as lemons do with okra.

I do appreciate your attempt to keep the debate civil. But your sophmoric preaching may fall on deaf ears.

Finally, you've yet again dodged Jason's point in his previous post (you bought it up) so very, very typical.

Please, please wooo us yet again, I can hardly wait!

April 24, 2007 10:24 PM
blamin said...

ron,

I apologize, I just can't help being an asshole sometimes.

BUT, I did mean what I said.

April 24, 2007 10:30 PM
Jim said...

And to you, Ron.

Nobody going for the quiz?

April 24, 2007 11:03 PM
jhbowden said...

ron--

Again, you think being a "real person" -- authenticity -- is a substitute for evidence and logic. I've been saying this about liberals since I've been on this blog-- they think people like Cindy Sheehan and Michael J. Fox are immune from criticism and excused from thinking because of who they are. On this blog, many of the liberal participants, including yourself, prove this time and time again.

Guess what buddy? I'm a real person too. And so are these other guys.

Perhaps you need to ponder that perhaps ***liberals*** are the ones ignorant of economics, ignorant of over 2,000 years of western philosophy, ignorant of the Enlightenment and our founding fathers, and ignorant when it comes to our moral inheritance. Conservatives are conservative because we know there are many things worthy of being conserved.

Like Michael Moore, or Rosie O'Donnell, or Leonardo DiCaprio, or Dan Rather, or Noam Chomsky -- liberals pull unbased opinions out of their ass, and proffer it as common sense. Anyone who disagrees can be slimed as hating the poor, or the ill, or the elderly, or not living in the liberal bubble of stupidity they call reality. Well, it is easier than thinking, I suppose.

April 24, 2007 11:15 PM
jhbowden said...

blamin--

Good luck trying to explain the difference between John Stuart Mill and Karl Marx to morons like Ron. He apparently knows it all.

Any person who knows *anything* beyond America's borders knows that around the world, the right is called liberal -- the French are totally freaking over the possibility that Sarkozy, a liberal who has ideas like Bush, might defeat the socialist, who has ideas like the Pelosi.

Here in the United States, for historical reasons, liberal means socialist. In other countries, people proudly call themselves socialist when they advocate government health care, high taxes, giving the UN power over nations, and so forth.

Here in the United States the left is very embarassed over who they are-- we fought a revolution to break free of the mercantile system of Kings, with the high taxes, high tariffs, restrictions on trade, and excessive centralized government control that went along with it. Ashamed over who they are and their sins against the ideals of America, our "liberals" will probably drop liberal for another word, like progressive, populist, or independent. They fail to recognize that the ideas are more important than whatever agitprop they use to describe themselves.

April 24, 2007 11:27 PM
Ron said...

Man, you guys are just a bunch of Dale Carnegies aren't you. Yep ime a dum ass librul elete, dont know nothin and cud never aproach yer intligenc level. You guys have nothin to gain from me obviously.I bow at cer fet cuz you gys are obvsly so much better an smarter then me.
You have refused my offer of friendship and reasonable debate. Thanks for nothing. I'm so impressed with your social skills I could puke. You guys and those like you are pushing for a civil war and don't think it couldn't happen. If it does it will be because of stubborn little snots like you guys. And don't be so sure that liberals are pussys and stupid people. I can be just as mean and nasty and brutal as you can. I just don't enjoy it as much as you obviously must. All you did with my hand of friendship was slap it so I will not act that way toward you either if that is not how you want to do it.I was man enough to humble myself and take the first step but your narcisstic attitude toward life and your chest puffing superiority attitude wouldn't allow you to try to come together enough to actually solve a problem.You have no desire to work with anybody on anything. It's my way or the highway for you guys. That is crystal clear. Most people on the planet find attitudes like yours revolting. But what do I know, I'm stupid,sophomoric, know nothing about politics or liberalism, ignorant and non thinking. Please woo me again.

Marshall and Game, I'm not talking to you.
Jim..suprised? Actually I kind of am. I don't know if it is the disconnecteness of the internet or if these people are really that subhuman? I actually thought they might at least be open to being friends who agree to disagree but I guess there I am as dumb as they imagine. This country is sunk..there is no way we can ever be a UNITED states again.


Who is curveball, answer jims question.

April 25, 2007 12:01 AM
Marshal Art said...

Ron,

Calm down, dude. I think it works this way: The more specific a point, the easier it is to discuss in a focussed and meaningful way. If the point is more general, it can seem more offensive to hear the response, since the response is aimed at the group, such as "libs always do this or that". What "libs" do might not reflect what you do or think or mean or hope to see or whatever. But when dealing with generalities, the response can be perfectly true. Even though Jim never knows any libs that feel that way.

Personally, I kinda like when some exchanges get heated. It's funny. Especially if the other person is the one getting riled. It often appears to be a sad truth that blog discussions never persuade anyone of anything. It could be due the passion everyone feels for their POV. I like to think I'm pretty open to being persuaded, but I never seem to hear anything persuasive. I learn things, but I don't feel anything that has any weight to trump my position. In this way, I agree that we'll never be totally united as a nation. But then I don't believe we ever were. Recently it has gotten worse, but despite seemingly arguing in vain, I think the arguments and debates must continue. Don't be discouraged, don't take great offense (small offense only) and steel thyself for battle.

April 25, 2007 12:31 AM
Ron said...

So ASSUMTION *1 is" instead of continually only hearing what a conservative THINKS a liberal is....." Ohhh, that's right, we only listen to the conservative point of view? Nooo, we couldn't possibly have considered other points of view, and found them lacking. So very, very, lacking.


But it is impossible to look at me and see the same thing. The other side of the coin. Nope you all just told me how wrong I was when I gave my impression of how conservatives think. When I tell you how liberals think you have the audacity to tell me I don't even know what a liberal is or believes. Even though you call me one all the time. You tell me I don't know myself and my own beliefs! Hubris to the bone! This is called closeminded thinking.

"...and while I have little doubt I am more openminded than most of the people..." Why of course you are! Your mind is just so open that anything can spill in at any time.


Yes you are close minded as I explained above..Yes just about anything can spill into my mind at anytime and I consider that a good thing. I always assumed that you gathered all the information you could and then made a decision. Just because it spills in doesn't mean I believe it..see I am not afraid to let anything in. Apparently you are, I think they call that closeminded.


And finally you attempt to invoke Aristotle in your definintion of the modern liberal, knowing full well that the modern Lib has about much in commen with Aristotle as lemons do with okra.

This is a wingnut thesis boy baffle em with bullshit college educated idiot argument.

I do appreciate your attempt to keep the debate civil. But your sophmoric preaching may fall on deaf ears.

Finally, you've yet again dodged Jason's point in his previous post (you bought it up) so very, very typical.

Thank you for at least on semi friendly paragraph and sophmoric is a relative term and in the eyes of the beholder junior.

I haven't dodged Jasons question. It made no sense to me, that is what I have been saying over and over and over again..get it yet pal? When he can ask it in english than I will tackle it, as long as he blubbers craptacular homilies I have nothing to say.


Again, you think being a "real person" -- authenticity -- is a substitute for evidence and logic. I've been saying this about liberals since I've been on this blog-- they think people like Cindy Sheehan and Michael J. Fox are immune from criticism and excused from thinking because of who they are. On this blog, many of the liberal participants, including yourself, prove this time and time again.

Authenticity is vital to me Jason, I will happily cop to that. Authenticity infers logic and honesty. Evidence and truth are relative. Yes I am sure you disagree with that but that is where we will agree to disagree. Nobody is or should be immune from criticism. Not Cindy Sheehan,Don Imus, Al Sharpton or George Bush. Your idea that the left feels that way is one of the fantasies I could set you straight on..but then again you would find something on newsbusters that said it wasn't true and I don't know what Im talking about. That is what I am say when I point out that my misunderstandings about conservatives are misunderstands and your misunderstandings about liberals is my ignorance..in your book.

Guess what buddy? I'm a real person too. And so are these other guys.
So I imagined.

Perhaps you need to ponder that perhaps ***liberals*** are the ones ignorant of economics, ignorant of over 2,000 years of western philosophy, ignorant of the Enlightenment and our founding fathers, and ignorant when it comes to our moral inheritance. Conservatives are conservative because we know there are many things worthy of being conserved.

To quote those above me..Nooo, we couldn't possibly have considered other points of view, and found them lacking. So very, very, lacking.
The enlightenment is what the liberalism I and most liberals I know base our beliefs on so I don't know where you come up with that stuff. Thomas Paine is one I would consider a role model...you know, the Age of Reason and all. I find many things worth conserving too. Truth be known I am actually not nearly as liberal as I am made out to be on this blog..but I know it wouldn't be fun for authoritarians without an enemy. At least that is the best I can figure.

liberals pull unbased opinions out of their ass, and proffer it as common sense. Anyone who disagrees can be slimed as hating the poor, or the ill, or the elderly, or not living in the liberal bubble of stupidity they call reality. Well, it is easier than thinking, I suppose.

It's not unbased opinions. You just think it is. They have integrated experience into their own thoughts and feel no need to defend it with somebody elses words. Sometimes its just true, people slime the poor,races,the ill or elderly or they just don't care. No others aren't at fault for our problems but they can contribute to or problems and our opportunities to fix them ,or they add to the stream of life ... Many are so interested in I got mine and f*ck you that they can't be the people or live that some expect. It's not a liberal bubble..it is the liberal equivilent of morals, I am sure you will have to find a way to slime that but that is what it is like it or not.

I don't know it all and I am not the smartest person in the world. I have only a high school education. I have many decades of life in which I have been very observatant and and consciously engaged in a life of continuing education. I also know that every publication and story I read refers to Strkozy as a conservative. I guess they are all wrong and only you really know the truth. Methinks your liberal/conservative bullshit is just that. I know what a liberal is and what a conservative is. Screw your thesis. You've learned so much that it has made YOU ignorant..comin back around the other side.

April 25, 2007 12:48 AM
Ron said...

Thanks Marshall, I think in large measure that is true. I think people are more snarky online with anonimity than they would be in person. I feel you and I could twist one up and have a friendly discussion even if we disagreed. I'm a lot more ameanable to change with someone who I think has my best interests at heart. It's hard to think that when all you get is stubborn demeaning snark.

April 25, 2007 12:53 AM
blamin said...

Ron,

let me be the first to apologize for the "snarky" (is that the correct modern day epithet?) comments. I'm truly sorry!

but comments like this: RON said: "...I have little doubt I am more openminded than most of the people on this board..." April 24, 2007 7:35 PM...
...Just beggs for a little smack down.

Come on dude, you talk a lot about differing ideas (while preaching yours) yet you refuse to answer some very pointed questions. And thus you have the "meat" to the various comments made.. You can pontificate about lib philosophy but when Jason or Marshall asks a hard question or makes an uncomfortable point, you and your buds (YOU KNOW who you are), dodge, ignore, whine, and cry about the comments made.

Regardless of what you've been spoon fed, conservatives are a complex bunch. There are certain things I disagree with Jason, Game, Rush, etal. Ya, ya I know it's hard to believe/comprehend! But disagreement is what makes the world go 'round.

Come on, are you a man or are you a mouse?

April 25, 2007 12:53 AM
blamin said...

ron,

I overwrote your last post.

very reasoned, and sane-sounding.

believe it or not, I can refrain from being a sarcastic asshole, which I will attempt (the key word being attempt) to do right now. Seems how you're not talking down your nose. (Of course, when I'm talking down my nose it's different).

April 25, 2007 1:03 AM
Ron said...

Thank you blamin. I hope we can actually discuss things and actually find solutions that will benefit us all.

April 25, 2007 1:08 AM
blamin said...

Ron

OK

I'm going to try and respond point by point. Please persavere, I'm tired and thirsty. And I tend to respond when I'm a little sloshed (just to make it fair)

BTW, You can't possibley be a dumb ass liberal elite, because liberal elitism presuposses dumb asseness.

Wow, that first paragraph is a dooze! Let me just say that when somebody (anybody) thinks they have the solution, of course they're going to put it forth with righteousness. Cons don't necessarily (ok pcd) enjoy being "mean and nasty", we just find ourselves on the defensive so much, it's become second nature.

Why for example, do we have to explain ourselves every time we talk about the welfare system in the US of A..."we want to help people needing help, we just don't wan't to create a dependecy class" ... why do we have to spell that out every single time this subject is debated?

The answer is because liberals (and I'm not lumping you) try to portray us as uncaring assholes every time the subject is debated. Kind of makes one wonder...Why can't they debate our points without portrying us as unfeeling, uncaring assholes? Hmmm...I wonder why that could possibly be?

I want to reiterate, why do we have to explain every single time the debate comes up? One may be led to believe that the libs can't actually debate our point.

Paragraph 2 - I tend to agree, I don't see how this country can agree on shit (or shit).

OK, I'm pleading ignorance, what the hell is this "curveball" crap?

finally, many of us see the views of the modern liberal (socialist) as being extremely harmful/destructive/down-right-fucked-up to the well being of this country, or if you please, the future of our children.

-But- I appreciate your willingness to actually debate the issues, you are truly, one in a hundred!

April 25, 2007 2:07 AM
Ron said...

S*it, its really late and I work really early but can't sleep. Quick note blamin..I hear you. Why do we of the more liberal perspective have to keep repeating that we do not honor laziness and we want people to be productive members of society and realize that things work better when people are? I think if we can both agree that we are both misunderstood on that we can move forward to more focused issues involving the problem of welfare. And yes I agree that it is a problem.

What I really wanted to do though is maybe see if we could get to know each other a little better. Game I hope you don't mind this. I know it is not politics but since this is the open thread...I was thinking maybe if we knew each other better we could put a more human face on who we are talking to and maybe even find some things outside of politics that we have in commmon. I know this is the WORLDWIDE web and some may be hesitant to share. Some may see it as a ploy for ammunition for a later debate but truly that is not what I have in mind. Sooooo Questions.

How old are you?
What do you do for a living? Had other jobs past your youth? What would you be doing if you could have the job you want?
Married..more than once? Kids?
Where did you grow up?
Where do you live now?
What are your passions, favorite things.
What kind of music do you spend most of your time with?
Anything else that would flesh out the real you.

I'll volunteer to go first.
I'm 51 years old. I work in radio. I am a morning guy at a country station. I've done some short stints in the resturant business and doing other things between jobs but basically radio is my life for 33 years. Every format including talk in various parts of the country.I would give my arm for another talk show. That is what I really want to do or a political job..or be an auto race announcer which I have also done as a side job here and there. I am currently living in Alamogordo, NM. Raised in Des Moines,Iowa and most of my immediate and extended family is in Iowa.
Never been married but been in love many many many times.:-) I have 2 children a girl almost 16 and a son that is 12.They live in Littleton Co. Much to my disdain I am basically a paycheck and phone call daddy but I do the best I can and love and care for them dearly. I don't get to see them nearly as much as I want but it has nothing to do with a problem between their mom and I. Just circumstances.
I love radio,and auto racing and politics.Radio is a fun job, not as easy as it appears and a rather low paying job overall. I would say 85% of the people make not much. It's a labor of love and a lot of people want to do it so..well you know the old supply and demand thing. I was in high school and forming my opinions on the world and politics in the late 60s and early 70s. I think a lot of what led me to a comfort level with liberalism has to do with that. High school always has cliques and I never fit well into any of them. Interestingly enough the "hippies" accepted me without condition and treated my like an equal and a friend when none of the others would. That is how I became a "hippie". I think living in a number of places and spending most of my early life in medium or larger cities that were more diverse also contributed to my liberal outlook on things. My parents are rather traditional. They are humble,gentle and friendly to everyone they meet. They do however share many of my social values and agree with me on the war and things like that. I like Chevys and Pontiacs.Currently drive a Chevy. I am a 13 years sober alcholic. I have discontinued the drugs even before that but still might burn one now and then if it turns up. I have an emotional attachment to warmth which is what caused me to spend a good deal of my life in the warmer climates. Florida, California, NM. I hate the cold. I had a paper route as a kid and froze my ass off hundreds of times. That crap gets old quick!
I admire Thomas Paine, Teddy Roosevelt and Paul Newman(liberal AND a racer!). I detest (sorry guys) Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity, comedian Rush Limbaugh and...well you know the list, just like I know yours:-). About the only thing I watch on tv is news and the history channel, national geographic channel and the like. Except saturday, I like Cops and sunday the fox cartoon line up in the evening. Not a movie buff at all but loved Fargo, my favorite movie. It has lots of life lessons if you watch for them. Basically a hard rock, southern rock person. Van Halen, AC/DC, Outlaws and the like. Think rap is crap and a scourge on society...but the good part is it is a scourge on a FREE society and that's the way it goes. I hate censorship.
Sorry if this seems self indulgent but I really would like to know you guys a little better and I can't ask that I wouldn't do myself. If you feel so inclined, whatever you feel inclined to offer. Jim..you too. Thanks...Go for it.

April 25, 2007 3:56 AM
Ron said...

Oh yes, and I think the purpose is to get you to seek it out..google "curveball iraq" and draw your own conclusions. Probably just the liberal media.:-)

April 25, 2007 4:09 AM
blamin said...

Gosh, I feel this sudden urge to sway and sing kumbaya!

Just kidding, just kidding, as my wife reminds me everyday, I’m an asshole and know it! (But she still loves me – go figure).

Radio sounds pretty glamorous, I envy you. I’m 43, work in finance, and I hate it! But I just so happen to be damn good at what I do. Other jobs in my past? Jeez, there’s a bunch, construction (my days building condo’s on the beach - Panama City Florida & Myrtle Beach SC - have to be some of my best memories), assembly line supervisor, building boat trailers, metal fabrication, dishwasher, cook, bar back, bouncer, dealer.

I’ve got a gorgeous 16-year-old daughter and a rambunctious 5-year-old boy. I also have 4 step sons aged 17, 18, 19, & 21, and let me tell you, that’s been a test, but they're all great kids.

My great passions in life – besides my family – is the outdoors & music. Anytime I’m in the woods, I can feel the stress taking flight. I love all kinds of music (excepting styles that end in “p”) especially classic rock, classical, and 50’s west coast jazz! I don’t blow a bad mouth harp, but always wished I had learned the sax!

Strip malls and clear cutting piss me the fuck right on off, but I would never presume to tell another what to do with their own property.

I love to read, and normally have at least 2 books going at any given time. I alternate between non-fiction and fiction, heady stuff like Jason likes to read, and pure out entertaining pulp-fiction, biography, fantasy, history, philosophy, and how-to books. My dirty-little secret is I love older pro-socialist fiction, i.e. “The Jungle”, “All’s Quite on the Western Front”, etc. I’m currently reading “The Man From St. Petersburg” and Better homes and Gardens “Illustrated Guide to Gardening” – it’s that time of year and there’s not much better than homegrown tomatoes.

What would I be doing if I could have any job? It would have to be outdoors! I love kids and music, so, if I could do anything, I guess I’d run a summer camp in the Blue Ridge Mountains for band students. Maybe with a little still hidden in a hollow, and a few hemp plants - just kidding I quit that illegal crap years ago, but I admit I’ve the urge from time to time.

You love auto racing? Damn, what a small world. One of our (the family and I) favorite pastimes is to camp and go to a nearby 1/3-mile dirt track. And I have to admit; NASCAR is one of the few vices (besides adult beverages) that I allow myself.

I too, was a (tie) dyed in the wool hippie, growing up, then, I, well, grew up. (I couldn’t resist that dig!). Hmmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with my tendency to daydream?

April 25, 2007 9:39 AM
blamin said...

This whole "curveball" Iraq argument seems a little specious to me, don't get me wrong, any intentional massaging of the facts pisses me off. -but-

For one thing, "curveball" was not the only person in the whole world gathereing intelligence on Iraq.

Secondly there have always been, and will always be conflicting opinions on any course of action.

Thirdly mobile bio weapons was but one threat facing the world.

Finally, when we gave advance warning to the Iraqs on our intention to invade (some kind of ridiculous lefty theory of "civilized" warfare) did anyone ever determine exactly what was in all those trucks crossing the boarder into Syria?

April 25, 2007 7:04 PM
Ron said...

Nice to meet you Blamin. Thank you my fellow American. kumbaya!

April 25, 2007 10:15 PM
Jim said...

Curveball was not gathering information. He was a proven drunken liar who was feeding "information" to European intelligence agencies. They were skeptical, but the Bush cons were not because they wanted to justify their desire to attack Iraq.

Just because there may be two opinions and they conflict doesn't doesn't make them equal.

April 25, 2007 10:27 PM
blamin said...

Jim

agreed

but you don't actually believe there were just two opinions, do you?

April 25, 2007 11:23 PM
blamin said...

your supposition that two arguments aren't necessarily equal.

additionally, your total reliance on "curveball"

Give me a fucking break! You don't have a great concept of intelligence gathering do you? "Curveball" was just one of hundreds. Damn dude, you don't actually believe the most powerful country in the world has "one guy" gathering intell; do you?

April 25, 2007 11:46 PM
jhbowden said...

ron--

Focus for a minute.

Suppose someone was a vegetarian and animal lover, had a few homosexuals as friends, lived with his girlfriend for years without getting married, championed the rights of workers, disliked smoking, had a passion for music, art, and architecture. Let us add that this person believes that your authenticity -- your ethnic heritage -- matters most, and what is true or false somehow depends on your ethnic group and social class.

This is a real person. While a pagan, he admired Christianity and stated "As Christ proclaimed love one another, so our call -- people's community, public need before private greed, communally-minded social consciousness -- rings out...! This call will echo throughout the world!"

Is it possible that this person could be wrong? Well, I'm describing Adolf Hitler.

Your focus on authenticity, Ron, is not a feature of the liberal tradition, nor it is of the Enlightenment, which was reasoned-based progress. And while the focus on authenticity sometimes exists with socialism, it is not essential to it. It is a defining feature of a specific kind of socialism usually called national socialism, or fascism. Fascists think they are right because of who they are. They openly embrace the irrational, and ultimately will support the prerogatives of tyrants like Saddam Hussein and will stand against democracies like the UK, Israel, the USA, and so forth.

April 26, 2007 9:18 AM
jhbowden said...

Okay, my Kumbaya moment:

I am 28 years old.

I just graduated college in December, earning a Bachelor's in Physics at UIC.

I currently work as a liaison between offenders and parole officers for a contractor for the Illinois Department of Corrections. I make 21K a year, though I will likely have a different job before this summer ends. I've have had about 10-15 jobs-- some descent, like data entry and working for a standardized testing company, and a lot of poor jobs, like working as a security guard, factory drone, pumping gas, and so forth.

I am currently single and looking.

My father is an electrician. My mother did not work.

I drive a 1995 Mitsubishi Mirage with almost 300,000 miles on it that needs a front-end alignment. It comes equipped with a Giuliani 2008 bumper sticker.

I enjoy reading everything from Herman Melville to Bertrand Russell. My education was worthless, and I am entirely self-taught.

I voted for Nader in 2000, and voted for Kerry in 2004. The events of 9/11 continue to reveal things to me. The international left has gone Pat Buchanan-style to my dismay -- inward looking, anti-commerce, and believing all cultures deserve to be respected-- even dark age religious fundamentalists. So I defected early in 2005.

I'm also a Chicago sports fan. I was baptized a White Sox fan by birth. I used to hate the Cubs, but now I just feel pity for their fans.

I love to travel. My next vacation, which will take place in the next two years, will be to the United Kingdom.

April 26, 2007 9:51 AM
blamin said...

Ron, this was a pretty good idea. Admit it though, what you consider the stereotypical conservative has not met your expectations, has it? And I admit after reading your “profile” you’re not what I pictured. Just goes to show

Jason, I’m very impressed with the fact that you’re only 28. I know a few grounded, reasoned, introspective kind of people that’s your age, but like I said, just a few, and my business brings me in contact with a lot of people.

Sometimes when I feel there’s just no hope for the future of this country, and our people, you’re the kind of guy that gives me confidence in what we are capable of.

Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya…

April 26, 2007 3:02 PM
blamin said...

Ya, I know - kind of corny, but corn seems to be the main fodder in these here parts.

April 26, 2007 3:12 PM
blamin said...

Marshall,

What's your story? I've enjoyed your musings for several years now.

I’m a little curious. I think you’re in the office equipment repair business, I know you’re a well reasoned “thinking man’s kind of man” guy. You like sports (da Bullzzz, da Bearszzz, did I get that right? -I feel like a Cajon in Alaska- da blackhawks – are they still around?… The Cubs – what the hell happened to them?) as most working people whom need an escape do.

Just so you know, I’ve saved several of your and Jasons musings for future reference. You both have a way with words. Thatsafordamnsure!

April 26, 2007 3:28 PM
Marshal Art said...

You mean you WANT me to talk about myself? Be careful what you ask for. But since you insist, relieve yourself, pop some corn and settle in.

I was born a poor black child...

(I love that line)

Turning 52 next month. Married 17 yrs after a 7 yr courtship (We dated 7 yrs and she STILL married me). Her lovely daughters are now 26 & 24, and we produced a third daughter together and she is 11.

Raised Roman Catholic but am now more fundie in my beliefs. Strangely, I've ended up with one of the most liberal denominations, United Church of Christ, and I'm on the Board of Elders and President of the Church Council. It's fun being a conservative in such a setting. In this denomination, each congregation is entirely autonomous and not required to abide any wacky UCC resolutions and our congregation leans right for the most part, but of the active members there are plenty liberal types. We get along great but there are times...
The UCC does hack me off and there is a guilt by association factor that sticks in my craw, but I'm aware of a more traditional faction in my area if I need some support. I try to be an influence.

As Blamin rightly recalled, I am a service technician by trade dealing mostly with copiers. It's my own personal hell on earth but it's the perfect job if you hate large incomes. I've tried to come up with alternatives, but I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I will say that this job has resulted in a major epiphany for me: jobs are what one should do while developing a means of making money. To that end I've looked at a variety of possibilities such as, brace yourselves, network marketing. This is a great creation that is the most overlooked opportunity going today. I've bounced around a few with varying degrees of success (mostly limited) and in each case I've encountered people who literally went from scraping by to well into six figures. It is more work than most think it to be, which is why many fail at it, but it's easy to understand work and the upside is fabulous. It is an industry that is so totally American in it's possibilities in that it gives ANYONE with the desire and perserverance (and discipline) the chance to make it. It truly empowers those who choose to use it as a vehicle for success. If only I wasn't such a lazy piece of shit.

I've also looked at more traditional things such as investing in real estate and the market. Don't have quite the confidence for these, but I'm working on it. A mentor would be very helpful.

I'm into sports. I've been a martial artist since I was 19 and am now into ju jutsu and my body absolutely hates it. But I dig it immensely. I have competed in karate tournaments, but enjoy just mixing it up with a consenting opponent who likes to go hard. Ju jutsu, as taught by my current instructor, does not lend itself to sport competition. So I like it even more.

I also bowl, but this year was horrible for some reason. I only finished with a 187 average. Last year I tailed off at the end but finished with a 198. It's a great sport for the sake of competition, gambling and heavy drinking. What could be better?

I love basketball but never get to play, I just shoot at the park when I can. I've played softball on leagues for a while (16 in, Jason, at short or third taking those brand new Clinchers on the line drives. Yeah, baby! Nothing more gratifying than snagging someone's liner and seeing the expression on his face!) I golf, but not enough to get good. But I love to hack up the fairways. BTW, it's "da Bullss" or "da Bearss". Gotta have dat "SSS" sound at da end. The Cubs have an agreement with MLB to always disappoint. But their parent company is up for sale so who knows? Maybe they'll broker a better deal and ACTUALLY FUCKIN' WIN, DAMNIT!!! Not having lived in the city, I choose to root for each of our Chicago representatives. The Sox gave us glory, now I await the Cub. A crosstown series, however, would signal the end of the world. As for the Blackhawks, there have been sightings.

Into music and sang in a few local bands for about 15 years or so. Miss that alot. Now I just sing in the church choir and my car. Play a little guitar and bass and mess with the blues harp. Am getting into classical as my little girl is taking violin lessons.

My wife and I love going to the movies and theater if we can, which we can't too often right now. We had a subscription to a local theatre at the Marriot in Lincolnshire, Ill. But times have been a little tricky so we haven't renewed. The wife is in line for a new gig that'll bump us 20K, so who knows? We also like to travel, but the same story applies.

I tend to read mostly non-fiction and also have two or three books going. Right now, I'm reading Robert Spencer's "The Truth About Muhammed". I read his "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades" and Mark Steyn's "America Alone" just recently. I've picked up Dumas' "The Three Musketeers" and found out there's a sequel in between it and "The Man in the Iron Mask" of which I was totally unaware. My daughter lent me "The Count of Monte Cristo" last summer and I really enjoyed it. I'm a big fan of Dickens and have read all but maybe two of his. I intend to continue reading classic literature I never read in my yute. I also wish to check out some of the heady selections on Jason's reading list. I love books about the Bible, that is, historical pieces about the times, culture etc, in which the Bible books were written.

I used to think I was a liberal. No, really. My first doubt came in high school, when a wiseguy social science teacher had us to a roll reversal. All my freaky friends and I were to debate as if we were Republicans and the beautiful people became the Dems. We won the debate. Turns out my crew, though long-haired stoners, believed in a strong military, keeping our money instead of having the government take it and as such, our arguments were impassioned and logical. Later, listening to a radio talk show on a Christian station, callers accused the host of sounding like Limbaugh. I didn't know who Rush was, but the host, while not dodging the accusation, didn't seem entirely cool with it. Nearby, a billboard had Rush's formerly big fat face on it advertising his radio show, so I tuned in. As it happened, he was telling a caller that in order to really understand where he was coming from, one needed to listen to his show for about six weeks. So I did. Turns out I agreed with 99% of what he said on a philosophic level. I think the only thing I disagreed with is weed. I like a toke now and again.

OK. That's more than enough. Though there's so many more fascinating aspects to the real Marshall Art, I'll put a stop to it here. Who's next?

April 26, 2007 11:01 PM
Marshal Art said...

Wow. That was way too long.

April 26, 2007 11:02 PM
Ron said...

Thanks guys it is nice to know there are humans behind it all. And blamin,my life is not all that glamourous. Able to live a life I don't hate everyday but that is about as far as it goes. I really don't care for the "celebrity" aspect of it and avoid that part as much as I can. I just enjoy the work and the opportunity it gives me to infest my time in something I enjoy.

April 28, 2007 10:54 AM
Jim said...

Balmin' said,

"You don't have a great concept of intelligence gathering do you? "Curveball" was just one of hundreds. Damn dude, you don't actually believe the most powerful country in the world has "one guy" gathering intell; do you?"

I have an excellent concept of intelligence gathering. Your supposition of what I believe is inane. I am well read on the subject. It is you who fails to grasp the point.

There were many sources of intelligence, but many of those used to JUSTIFY the invasion of Iraq were dubious in nature and disputed by mid-level CIA personnel, international intelligence agencies, and a few in the media who actually looked beyond the official administration line.

Case in point: Powell in his speech to the United Nations cited a British report about the production and concealment of biological weapons. The report was purportedly drawn from a secret dossier, but within days of the speech the British press found that the report was drawn largely from the post-graduate thesis of a California student that had been downloaded from the internet, typos and all. The US media, however, was on board with the administration and ignored this.

Furthermore, the administration ignored or suppressed any evidence or facts that contradicted their position. The UN weapons inspectors were in Iraq from December 2002 until days before the invasion. They reported daily on their progress finding nothing but the records of the disposal of weapons and materials. This evidence was ignored, and yet as was later found, it was accurate.

Yes, multiple sources of intelligence, but the point is that much used to justify the invasion was known AT THE TIME to be dubious.

April 28, 2007 3:36 PM

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