Okay, what is the problem?
Lets have a real debate. (not stealing that from RDW)
If you just write that Bush is a liar and stupid and sucks....I might actually delete your comments for the first time ever.
Righties...lets take an honest look at what is going on
Lefties.....try to calm down and articulate what you think he is doing wrong...
Because everyone needs to take a good long look in the mirror and see that Bush's numbers have not been good over over a year now.
Tuesday, February 28, 2006
Poll: Bush Ratings At All-Time Low
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21 comments:
How can you say him being a liar isnt relevant?
Damit Rhyno...besides the fact that you don't think Bode Miller choked at the olympics...
you give me PROOF that Bush LIED and I'll let you say it without attacking you....
If Bush lied, then the WHOLE WORLD lied....everyone believed the same reports...
There are many other things you can talk about regarding Bush's numbers, milwaukee id10t said some good things that make sense...
Bush's numbers have dropped because of Iraq and Dubai.
On Dubai, the case wasn't sold to the public, and people aren't going to give states that don't recognize the Zionist Entity the benefit of the doubt.
Message control on Iraq has been bad recently too. Iraq should be sold as a progressive war to support Middle Eastern democrats against religious zealots. People vote in Iraq at higher rates than they do here, and that is with the risk of being blown up by fanatics. But Bush can't do this, since by arguing for a progressive, liberal war, he'd offend his base that wants to demolish the separation of Church and State. I even find myself at times wishing for a liberal hawk in 2008, because they will be the one that can make the case for Freedom. Democrats like Truman, Clinton, Johnson, and Kennedy took action against totalitarians. I don't see what the McGovern/Deaniac wing of the Dems have against helping democrats overseas and liberal governments -- since the 1960s, liberals been claiming the United States is the bad guy in world affairs -- we're evil when we act (Grenada, Bosnia, Somalia, Iraq) and evil when we don't act (Rwanda, Sudan, North Korea).
Good points Jason...
Liberals should be for this war, to bring freedom to oppressed people, but they have changed from a party that actually helps people to the party that simply does the opposite of what the Republicans do...
Yes, let us send our soldiers and our national treasure from country to country to country to help oppressed people. The Iraqis were un-oppressed almost 3 years ago. Unfortunately, the Bush administration (excluding the State Department and the CIA) forgot to consider what to do AFTER kicking the crap out of Saddam.
The positives of Iraq's self governance is not being publicized? What positives would that be? And since FOX News Channel is the cable news "that dominates", who's not getting the message.
I have come to the conclusion that Bush is not a liar. He simply does not know any better than to repeat the lies being whispered in his ear or typed on his teleprompter.
Lastly, after five years of being fooled by Rove and Cheney's smoke and mirrors, the center, non-Bush base is finally realizing that:
"The President is not an evil man, not a man who trades "blood for oil," not an imperialist aggressor, but a simple screw-up, a small man in way over his head, a weak man who has succumbed under pressure to megalomania, an incompetent." -- Michael Hirsh of Newsweek
The reason that it appears that the Democratic party simply does the opposite of what the Republics do is that the Republics are in lock step behind a president who formed an administration of incompetents, "leads" with his ideological pecker, and turns everything he touches into dung.
I'll pick one point Jim made...
The Iraqis were un-oppressed almost 3 years ago.
That is a comment that is so damn wrong that it makes me wonder if Jim is actually someone in an institution that is let on the computer a few hours a day.
Iraqi's economy is folds better, the average worker's salary has increased three fold, they have a democracy (I know, I know...they should have a perfect fully funcioning government after 10 minutes). If Iraq is not running smoothly by 2014, then you can say it is not working...
Game --
Amen. Hussein's government was one of the most cruel governments of my lifetime, and I'm glad its gone.
American Democrats act like success in a free Iraq is the worst thing that can possibly happen to the world. They have this creepy, erotic attachment to failure -- they thought the initial war was going wrong, then they thought people voting would never work, and now they seem a little too eager to jump the gun on this notion of civil war.
Republicans are winning wars for liberal democrats in what used to be fascist countries ruled by religious zealots. Deep down liberals want to support it too, and they wish one of their own was in charge after 9/11.
I said I didnt think Miller choked cuz I never thought he was going to accomplish anything. Having coached for half my life, I recognized him as someone who will never achieve the highest reward because he is a slob and a dope.
If you cant acknowledge that Bush has lied, with all the evidence there is for it, you will always be deluded that way and nothing I say will convince you. The whole world didnt believe those reports, the whole world believed the Bush administration. With Bush at its head, HE is responsible for the things he says. Even if, by some drastic stretch, he had no idea the intelligence was wrong, HE told the whole world those lies and HE is responsible for it.
Oh, and Jim...the Rupublican rank and file are not in goose step behind Bush, anymore. Not that they wouldnt be if he was more popular, but this is politics. The pres isnt popular, so people in his party are trying to distance themselves from him.
Rhyno, what evidence? Nobody thusfar has produced any conclusive evidence that Bush lied about anything. You certainly haven't... Here's a challenge for you... put up or shut up.
When you say, "everybody believed the Bush administration" (as opposed to numerous supporting governments, historical fact, and endless investigations, studies, analysis, etc) simultaneously with "bush lied" you assume two things: 1. Bush knew what he was saying to be false at the time he said it (see definition of lying). 2. That every government in the world who declared Saddam a threat and a serious problem was getting their information solely from Bush.
So here it is again...put up or shut up
Bush is not a liar
Excuse me but please note that I said in the above post that I had come to the conclusion that Bush did not lie. He simply doesn't know any better because he doesn't question and he doesn't like people to disagree with him. I have said many times that I cannot prove that Bush has lied. But I have said and can prove that he has said things that are untrue and were known by those around him to be untrue. The fact that he says these things that are untrue doesn't make him a liar. It makes him incompetent.
Mike,
Everybody knows that supposedly every other country in the world agreed with the Bush administration about the threat posed by Iraq. To some degree that is true.
It's true that much of the information that the US and other countries had came from very unreliable sources (curveball) who were known at the time to be very unreliable.
It's true that most countries AND the CIA suspected that Iraq had or was developing WMDs.
It's true also that those countries AND the CIA had doubts about the reliability of the information they had and also had other information that contradicted the conventional wisdom.
It's also true that the Bush adminstration failed to make known to the public and the Congress that there were analyses foreign and domestic that expressed doubts about Iraq's threat. Instead they used words like "There is no doubt" and "It's been pretty well established" to convince Congress and the public to go to war.
It's not lying . . . well not exactly. At the very least it is misleading. And now a significant majority of Americans believe they were mislead into supporting the war in Iraq.
To you as well, mike m:
If you dont believe it, you will forever be deluded and nothing I can say will every change your mind. You will always have some turd excuse or bullshit rhetoric to allow yourself a cleaner conscience. The simple fact here, and to jim as well, is that he was utterly wrong. When you make a definitive statement of fact, and claim falsely, your reasoning for it, I say he is a liar.
The US is quite friendly with the governments of Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. The peoples of these countries are oppressed by their governments and are often cruelly treated.
When are we going to attack them and bring them liberal democracy?
rhyno...you are the only one here who thinks bush is a liar...Jim understands how the word liar CAN NOT be proven...and you have given NO evidence to prove otherwise...
Democrats aren't against success in Iraq. That's another false argument. Democrats can only hope for success against the odds provided by an incompetent administration with no plan.
You keep saying to give it time, Iraq may yet make themselves into a successful democracy. Could be, but are you willing to invest 1,000 American lives A YEAR and $100 Billion A YEAR for the next 10 years or more?
You want to invest $100 Billion a year for the possibility of a democracy while we have 300-500 billion dollar deficits EACH YEAR not including war costs and not including funds borrowed from the Social Security Trust fund?
Democracy is all well and good if you can afford it. But what price are YOU willing to pay to bring it to Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan? Are we going there next?
Game,
Please cite your source for the economic health of the average Iraqi.
It may be possible the the average Iraqi WHO HAS A JOB makes more than during Saddam's reign, but most Iraqis are unemployed, I believe.
But I don't believe your statistic.
Game, you must just assume I'm stupid. I'll spell it out. The Iraqis have not been oppressed since the US drove Saddam from power.
OK, on that lie thing...how would you describe this:
Bush is briefed by weather and disaster experts the day before Katrina hits the Gulf Coast. He is told directly, "I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern."
Four days later Bush said, "I don't think anybody anticipated a breach of the levees."
Bush's body is recorded at this briefing, as is his voice. Where his brain was is anybody's guess.
"I don't think anybody anticipated a breach of the levees" is either a lie or the height of incompetence.
Take your pick.
as far as the money value goes...almost anything is better than giving it to the professional welfare losers...
We can get into that battle again...as far as I am concerned, take all the programs away that help people continue to be lazy and incompetent...I see it every day, and to be honest, right now it is making me sick...so Jim, you probably don't deserve this tone...
Stats on Iraq...
a bit later...
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