Wednesday, July 15, 2009

Socialized health care: Here it comes

Well, we have the worst economy maybe ever, and now Obama wants to socialize your health care...so for a vast majority of us, ruin your health care.

See, liberals want everything to be "fair" meaning the same for everyone. They do not raise up the poor who don't have it or have poor care, they just lower everyone down to the same crappy level.
You will now have to wait rediculous amounts of time for procedures. People with enough money come from Canada and pay cash for surgery in the US because they do not want to wait so long with their socialized program.
Here is one example from England

Are we going to let the liberals completely ruin our country?
Are we going to allow our health care to be destroyed?
Look at where liberalism has already taken over and how terrible things are there.
Europe is trying to change the terrible consequences of liberalism, and we are just now allowing failed liberal thought and policies destroy our country.
This is terrible.
Here are some more stories
1,000+ page bill would make health care a right in USA...
DEMS TO HIT TOP EARNERS WITH 5.4% SURTAX...
'Since when does our great free-market country punish success'...
Obama airing TV ad touting massive overhaul...

25 comments:

American said...

While I don’t share the same hasty conclusions and generalizations you have made, I still worry about the whole thing.
1. You are right – Economy is really bad. Ad, it seems to be getting worse.
2. The fear of waiting list is true to some extent. I know some patients flying out of the country to get their health taken care of. But here is the catch – it’s happening here in US as well for a different reason – Cost !! As you probably know, ‘Medical Tourism’ is slowly catching up.
3. It brings me to my third point – Cost. There needs to be a closer look at healthcare costs and see why they cost so much to get a treatment here.
4. Obama’s plan requires huge amount of money – I wonder where we can find money when we have so much debt. (I know – print money!!)
5. We have to honestly study other western countries like France, Australia, Canada and see what we can learn from their systems. It will also help us in avoiding repeating the same mistakes they have made.

The Game said...

That is well done and I agree with all of it.
In no way is the way our health care is done right now perfect or even good.
Yes, primiums are destroying companies and jobs and something needs to be done.
However, Obama and the Democrats way will bankrupt us (actually, they might have already done that, so maybe just printing more money is fine...Obama has possibly already ruined us), it will give us worse health care as shown by anyone else who has tried it and it moves us closer to total socialism.

HumbleHumanity said...

Let's leave American out of this discussion, as he has made it abundantly clear, he has enough learning to do in his own field. When we have a discussion about making the perfect BigMac, then he can join the throng.

Anonymous said...

When are you going to understand the difference between taking obscene profits out of the health insurance scam industry...and the delivery of health care, which won't substantially change no matter who's paying the bills? Why the hard-on for the HMOs and their stockholders? You think they give a shat about you? Maybe they'll cut your bill next time you're hospitalized, seeing as you're such a big f-ing cheerleader for them.

HumbleHumanity said...

Anonymous, if you want to talk about obscene, then lets talk. Healthcare is a public NEED, why should anyone make money on it. Let's look at some other public NEEDS.

1. toilet paper, we NEEEEEEED it. Why should GP and KimberlyClark (I can't remember any of the other obscene profit takers) make anymore that they need to pay their bills?

2. Deodorant, WE NEEEEEEEED it. Have you ever been is a movie, sitting right next to someone who couldn't afford deodorant because of the gross profit that Mennen makes, it is unAmerican.

3. Teethpaste, WE NEEEEEED it. Well, at least the northern half of the country needs it. Us southerners only need toothpaste. Colgate should cut the price down to cost, their shareholder don't deserve to live the life of luxury from all those obscene profits.

Do I need to go on. Have I made my point?

The Game said...

very very well done HH

American said...

@ HH:
Every product/service in the market has to have some demand/need in our society. Otherwise, it won't even exist in the market. When there is a product/service, there will be someone making profit. It's not same as making 'obscene profit'. Oh well...

Anonymous said...

I take your word that your personal hygiene could use some improvement. I get that part. TMI.

Good thing your HMO doesn't corner the market on toilet supplies. You'd be paying $20/roll.

HumbleHumanity said...

American,
You cheated, you actually studied economics. I hope you aren't falling behind at work.

"Every product/service in the market has to have some demand/need in our society." I disagree. The average BigMac chef could make a convincing case that we don't need/demand the following
1. Department of Education
2. The IRS
3. The ACLU
4. The Department of Obscene Profit Oversight AKA the Obscene Profit Police (OPP).

Anonymous (or are you?)

I don't have HMO, I am actually happily married with a clean bill of health.

The Game said...

ahhh, but there is the point american...whose job is it to determine if a profit is obscene?

Oil companies make tons of money, but that is because of the cost of their product...their profit margin is actually quite low.

Drug companies make lots of money on some drugs, but that is because it costs many millions of dollars to research and test new drugs

I really really don't want govt messing with this cycle

American said...

@ HH:
I didn't say that everyone finds every product/service useful or attractive. You probably think that IRS and Dept of Education are not required. There might be another person questioning if we need Borders, guantanamo, Church etc. It doesn't matter whether you like or dislike them. As long as there is a demand, you can see them.
Yes - I know a little bit about Business and economics. But, I didn't learn it from random guys on blog or from radio talk show hosts...(hint, hint)

@ Game:
Whose job is it to determine if a profit is obscene? Well, like any other things in our society, we collectively decide what's right and what's wrong. Govt is not some alien here. We elect them. They form policies based on what people demand (well, at least on socio-economic issues).

Anonymous said...

How many Italians, Australians and Candians you have seen lining up for getting treatment in USA because they are unhappy with their plan? Compare this to Americans crossing the border to get treatment/medicine in Canada or Mexico.

HumbleHumanity said...

Sorry, but people aren't going into Meheco to get better treatment, they are going to get experimental treatment.

The Game said...

I understand why someone who really thinks people are going to Mexico and Canada in record numbers for medical procedures from the US would not give their name

Ron said...

Where to begin. You guys never seem to want to ever face the basic fact that those with the money rule the world. Until you acknowledge that basic fact we aren't even talking about the same things.

Just a quick example though. What would be the best possible outcome for insurance companies and health industries? .........

That whatever else happened every person in the US would be mandated to purchase their product. Every customer they could possibly have. That is what will ultimately happen. Be it from "government money" or from private funds. Our money will still be pooled towards a private, dedicated to maximum profit enterprise. Not that that is always bad.
The point is that your socialism and government run health care is silly word salad friends. The rich run this country for their benefit. Game seems to love this and feel it is the only moral way for things to work. While I understand his point per virtues I still think you guys target the wrong things entirely. Which is the reason that there is absolutely no communication between us anymore. We aren't even discussing the same things, yet the charade that we are continues.

HH, Do you often play the six degrees of Kevin Bacon? Your comparison was so irrelevant as to be laughable, or more appropriately cryable.

Ron said...

Jason, I left you a post on the palin/liberal media thread.

HumbleHumanity said...

Don't drink the water, but by all means, have a surgury.

The Game said...

Ron, you focus on labels and words and your theory that rich control everything...
Lets say your right that I am using the wrong words
Lets say you are right that the rich control everything...

Focus Focus Focus
I am talking about the PlAN, what will happen to our health care, your life...our economy, our money..focus Ron...

Jason H. Bowden said...

Ron--

It is a mistake to moralize economic phenomena. Just as it would be stupid to claim housing prices are falling because of the altruism of realtors, it is foolish to claim healthcare costs are rising because of greed.

Note, where the government is not involved in healthcare, like LASIK surgery or cosmetic surgery, we've seen rising quality and declining costs. That's because of *greed* and *competition*.

Now, when government subsidizes the demand for a good or service, the price rises. This is basic economics-- an increase in demand means an increase in equilibrium price.

Suppose the government paid for everyone's automobiles. Everyone left and right would be getting the best cars possible, and many of them too. Car companies would make record profits and expand production. They can raise prices because cost is no object to the consumer -- the government is paying the bill. But the price tag to the government escalates out of control, and we've just created a blackhole where more and more of the GDP will be devoted to car production.

The situational logic follows in other contexts. For example, this is why college tuition has been rising out of control. This is why the Pentagon always has cost overruns. It also applies for healthcare, where the U.S. government pays for about 50% of total healthcare costs.

Before Ted Kennedy's HMO Act of 1973, it was illegal in most states to be paid for denying medical care, but since the cost of Medicare and Medicare were rising exponentially, the Democrats created the HMO system as a rationing mechanism. We also have a tax break when employees get insurance through their employer, a compassionate policy designed to help the worker. But like all liberal programs, the good intentions create the opposite result -- this policy disables competition since it makes getting insurance elsewhere more expensive, and as a result, costs rise on the whole.

The current ObamaCare bill will make things much much worse. It will effectively bankrupt the delivery of private care and force everyone onto government controlled plans. This is the penultimate step to European style socialism, where there is a shortage of doctors, limited technology, and endless queues.

I know, I'm throwing pearls before swine.

Jason H. Bowden said...

Ironically, it is the rich under socialism that can always take the plane flight to India to get medical care immediately; it is the *poor* who get screwed and die in the queues.

Anonymous said...

Could you please cite 1 bill that would institute socialism? Rationing of care?

There isn't one.

Jason H. Bowden said...

Anonymous--

We're already 50% of the way there with Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP.

Anonymous said...

These programs are not socialism nor do they involve rationing.

You're either ignorant of the issues or simply love throwing around buzz words.

Jason H. Bowden said...

Anon, you're correct. Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP are private for-profit corporations. They are not 20% of the federal budget. Medicare, for example, sets prices based on supply and demand; there are no Commissars setting prices via centralized reimbursement planning.

I apologize for my mistake. I won't let it happen again.

Ron said...

Focus Focus Focus
I am talking about the PlAN, what will happen to our health care, your life...our economy, our money..focus Ron...


Precisely what I have been doing game.What happens to my life when private for profit corporations determine my health care is not working for me or many others.

Any complaint you can bring up is also a problem in our current system in one way or the other. There is no lack of money. We already spend 16% of our gdp. and more per person than any other major country with substandard per capita outcomes. The money is already there. It just needs to be reorganized and cost increases need to be monitored and controlled. If they can't do it with the trillions we are already spending when other countries can then it doesn't say much for the so called leaders in this country. Of both parties.

My point is it will not get any better until you learn that people with private and not public interests are running the country. These people will continue to work in the private and not public interests until 1. they are forced to address society as a whole, or 2. You make it profitable to work in the public interest. How do we do that?

Pearls before those against the public interest, I know.